Transcript | PPP077: Telling Important Stories with Naomi Hunter and Jeremy Hunter

 

Ellen:

Hello, and welcome to the Potential Psychology Podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Jackson, and it's my mission to share the science of human behavior in a practical, fun, and inspiring way. In each podcast episode, I interview an expert from the fields of psychology, well-being, leadership, parenting, or high performance. I pick their brain to uncover what they know about living well, what tips do they have for you and I, and I quiz them about how they apply their expertise in their own life. Join me as we discover simple, science-backed ways to live, learn, flourish, and fulfill your potential.

Ellen:
Hello, you are listening to the Potential Psychology Podcast, I am Ellen, and this is episode 77. And aren't these crazy times right now? I feel like I've already said that this year, when we, here in Australia, were living through the major bush fires in January, and then the world lived through the repercussions and the social media news frenzy that ensued, and here we are only 11 or 12 weeks later experiencing a new very different crisis, but same, same and kind of different response.

Ellen:
As a psychologist, this is actually fantastic for observing human behavior right now, and trying to unpick what we're seeing, and on Monday I read my webinar on personality, and I've put a link to the recording for that in our podcast's Facebook group, if you're interested in taking a look at it in case you missed the live, and at the end of that webinar I had a fantastic question from a participant, and I thought I'd share that with you. Robby asked, "How did we go from being so helpful in the bush fires, to being so self-centered in the COVID-19 crisis?"

Ellen:
And first I want to say, that's a great observation of human behavior, isn't it? And how different a situation can seem to change the nature of people, how do we go from responding in such a compassionate and thoughtful way, and then only a matter of weeks later another global crisis, well global versus local maybe, but another crisis that had an impact on everyone and certainly everybody knew about it, we become so much more self-focused, and self-centered, and panic buying toilet paper, and all of this other kind of odd stuff that's going on.

Ellen:
And I don't know for sure what the answer is to that, why we're behaving in such a different way, but my best estimate on what I know as a psychologist is this, and it has to do with how we perceive threat, and its likelihood of affecting us personally. So most of us weren't threatened by the bushfires personally, or directly, so we had the emotional resources and the capacity to think about and to help others, we just had the space, both mentally, emotionally in order to do that, and we focused outside of ourselves, and on the well-being of other people, because we ourselves weren't under threat.

Ellen:
With COVID-19 on the other hand, we're all feeling directly under threat, whether that's from the virus itself, you might not be feeling particularly threatened personally by the virus, but I think we're probably all feeling the impact of changes to our daily lives, and lifestyle as a result of the pandemic, and as a consequence we're becoming much more self-focused and defensive in our behavior. We're much more self-absorbed, because our brain is perceiving threat to us, we're really focusing on what does this mean for me, what's happening to me, what do I need to do, how do I feel about it, give me information, information, information, and we're dealing with that uncertainty, and it's a consequence we just don't have the mental and psychological space to be thinking so much about other people. We feel like we're under threat, or our brains are perceiving that we're under threat, and that's really driving our behavior.

Ellen:
And this might not feel like particularly admirable behavior, in ourselves or at other people, it's not something we want to see in ourselves or in other people, this kind of survival, it's all about me instinct, but if we take the judgment out of that, it is just normal survival behavior, it's our brains responding to threat, and ideally we'd all be able to take a step back and look at this behavior objectively, see what we're doing, and how it might not be terribly helpful always, or kind, or compassionate towards other people, and then we can change that behavior, but it requires us to do that, it requires us to pay attention to ourselves, understand the behavior, decide if we have options to behave differently, and make the conscious choice to do that, and that is hard when our brain is being bombarded by constant uncertainty, and degrees of threatening information, which is the world that we're in right now.

Ellen:
So, be kind to yourself, be aware of what you're thinking, and feeling, and doing, ask yourself if it's helpful, is it making you more anxious? Is it making you more self-centered and self-absorbed than you'd like to be? Is it making you irritable towards other people or towards yourselves? Is it making you flippant and dismissive and not the person you'd really like to be? Whatever the impact the uncertainty is having on you, don't judge it, don't come down on yourself for it, just observe it, and if it's something that needs to change to help you to be the kind of person that you'd like to be, to help you to be less anxious, more positive, more compassionate, whatever, the result is for you, then make that change.

Ellen:
So, I'm personally trying hard to reduce my social media exposure, and to stop obsessively checking the news updates, because I know it's not helping me, I know that I'm doing it because my brain is seeking answers, and certainty, something that in psychology we call cognitive closure, and I know also that I'm not going to get that through the obsessive checking, and the news updates, because we're just swimming in uncertainty, and there are no answers right now, but it's sort of like a need, a drive to do that, to keep checking in the hope that my brain can get some kind of certainty, not so much about the threat of the virus itself, but about what the implications are for that, for me, for my kids at school, for their sports, for my work, for so many different facets, my ability to buy my groceries, so many different facets of daily life are being affected right now, and my brain is looking for closure on that, yours may well be doing so too.

Ellen:
But as a consequence, I'm feeling a rise in anxiety, I'm spending too much time, and I'm frustrated and distracted, I'm not present in the things that I really ought to be doing, and they're little things that I want to be able to change. So I may pick up my well-being activities, I've made a conscious choice, I've noticed this about myself, I'm not happy with the status quo, so I'm activating a bit of a additional well-being plan, which involves getting outdoors, walking, engaging in my hobbies, yoga, meditation, the things that help to distract me, and help me to remain calm and well, all of course while maintaining an appropriate social distance.

Ellen:
So while we're talking about distraction, I have a wonderful interview for you today that will absolutely distract you from COVID-19 and get you thinking about other people and their positive contribution to the world. So let's listen in.

Ellen:
My guests today, two of them, are Naomi Hunter and Jeremy Hunter, the co-managing directors of Empowering Resources, a boutique publisher of children's books that encourage meaningful conversation between kids and their trusted adults, and as we'll discuss, their books handle tough topics with both nurturing and understanding to allow conversations to evolve wherever the kids need them to go. Welcome to both of you, it's great to have you here.

Jeremy:
Thank you.

Naomi:
Thank you Ellen, it's lovely to be here.

Ellen:
I have quite a few questions, and I have this lovely pile of books here next to me that you have sent, I think there's about 10 of them that you sent through to me.

Naomi:
Yeah.

Ellen:
I have to admit, I sat there the other afternoon in the office, I work in a co-working space, so there's all these people around me, and I read through each and every one of them, and I was a bit teary, they really had an effect on me.

Jeremy:
That's quite common, they're quite a common response, we get that from a lot of adults and-

Ellen:
Good.

Jeremy:
... often it's because adults connect with a lot of the things that are in the books.

Ellen:
Yeah, and I think too I connected, particularly with some of them around perhaps not fears for my children, but just realizing the sorts of things that can happen to kids even the loss of siblings, and some of these sorts of things that just really made me a bit teary. So, obviously they have an emotional impact, but before we get into that tell me a bit about who you are, and what you do.

Jeremy:
Naomi and I are a married couple, we've been together since we were 16, we were high school sweethearts, and we've just been through quite a bit that allows us to have a lot of passion for helping kids, we've got a child of our own who's nearly 11, so raising her and going through some stuff that we've been through just means that we're really passionate about helping kids, but also in helping parents, and caregivers, and teachers, and professionals who work with kids to have really good discussions, and Empowering Resources was born from not a great situation, where Naomi wrote her first book, A Secret Safe to Tell that was published initially by a different publisher, and they ended up going bust, and going to liquidation, and we never saw a cent from them, even though the book sold out three times, but what that meant, the silver lining there was that we got the rights to the book, and then we were able to do our own thing with it.

Jeremy:
And from there, Empowering Resources has just grown, we've never advertised looking for manuscripts, but people just send us manuscripts, they have a shared passion for doing what we do, and we want to impact kids around the world, and through amazing children's books.

Ellen:
Yeah, it's amazing the difference that shared meaning and purpose can have. I know we talk sometimes about vibe attracts your tribe when it comes to marketing and what have you, but obviously I guess that purpose and passion piece is enough to attract the sorts of manuscripts, the sorts of rashes that you're looking for, and then a mutual collaboration to get these wonderful works out there into the world.

Naomi:
Yeah, and it was the impact, the insurmountable amount of wonderful messages we were getting of support that the first book was having and reaching, places far and wide over Australia and overseas, that we knew that we had done something absolutely so beautifully moving and impactful that we couldn't stop once the publisher that we were affiliated with went into liquidation. So we knew we had to keep it going, that momentum was so strong, and it was evident that there was such a need out there for people's stories to be heard.

Ellen:
Wonderful, so that sense of almost a calling?

Naomi:
Yeah, absolutely.

Ellen:
This has to be done, this is what we need to do.

Jeremy:
And I think Naomi was interviewed on ABC Radio in, I think it was Newcastle, with this specific interview I'm thinking of, and the interviewer said it best, she said, "You're not an author looking for things to write about, you're someone that's gone through things and have passions, and you end up writing about them." And I think that's the key with all of our books, it's not just authors thinking, "Oh, I want to write a book, what could I write about?" It's people writing from the heart, and writing about things that are really key to them, and they're really passionate about, and often our authors have been through things that the themes of the book are about, and that's where that heart comes through, and I think that's what makes people connect with our books.

Ellen:
Yeah. So there's a story inside of them that has to come out?

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely. And Jeremy and I are both teachers, I'm a primary school teacher, and Jeremy's high school, and so our work with children meant that we had that knowledge and insight in the educational setting, and seeing the gap in resource pool, or how adults were approaching topics with children currently in just the educational setting, and the lack of communication and connection and conversation around these issues, it was just so silent, and so that's where this passion grew. We were just like, "This is not good enough, we're not doing our kids the service they deserve, and we're not meeting the need to help support them and empower them," not just after something has happened, we want to get in before, and we want to nurture them and build up their competence in dealing with situations to get them empowered and out of it before things happen.

Ellen:
Naomi, I'm going to come back to that because I think that's a really important point, that where is the gap in the market so to speak, how is it that children have not been perhaps served as best they could have been with the resources that have been available in schools, and in our communities, and also for professionals, but I'd love if you could tell us a little bit about A Secret Safe to Tell, what led you to write it, and perhaps a bit more about the impact that that's had.

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely. So after we had our beautiful daughter, she's now 11, I just went through this incredible situation where I was re-faced with all of the childhood trauma of like the sexual abuse I suffered for many years as a child, and it was extreme, and it went on for a long time, and I tried to speak up when I was a child, and I was silenced, and I wasn't believed, and it was difficult. So you grow up with this disgusting dirty secret, and then after you have your own beautiful child; unfortunately it can come back, and just the devastation of becoming a new mom, and that time should be so beautiful, and full of connection, and warmth, and yes you're going through a lot of hormonal changes and everything, but did not expect to have to face all of that horror and trauma while navigating becoming a new parent.

Naomi:
So it was about a year, when Marli was about a year old, I was going through my own healing process, and I sought out some wonderful supports and therapy, and I don't know, I just was laying in bed one night, I was thinking, "This is just not okay, it's not good enough that no one stepped in when I was a child, and what can I do? How can I support one child out there that might be going through the same thing to feel less isolated, less alone, and just know that they can speak up about it and get the support and healing as a child rather than doing it when they're becoming parents themselves?" So, yeah, I wrote this book, and then went on the journey to find a publisher for it.

Ellen:
And the story itself really is that telling kids, I suppose, suggesting to kids, helping them to understand that it is okay to talk about these things to a trusted adult when perhaps all the messaging they're getting is, "This is not something you can tell anyone."

Naomi:
Yes, it's very shameful.

Jeremy:
The most amazing impact that the book had is within the first three months of its release, 10 young girls disclosed abuse while reading it, and that for us was just so amazing. We had many nights just crying in devastation for these kids, but so amazed and grateful that the book had reached them. When we sought to publish the book, it cost us a lot of money to initially publish the book, and we just said if it impacts one child, then it's all worth it.

Jeremy:
I still remember that first day where we heard about this first young girl, it was a friend of a friend of ours, and our friend had lent it to her friend, and during the reading of the book the little girl just said, "This has happened to me." And when we heard that, it was all worth it. Everything, not necessarily Naomi's childhood, but all the trauma and the difficulties as adults suddenly was just all for something good, and everything that has happened from then on is just ominous, but to have 10 young girls within the first three months, that's what we know of, there's infinitely many more I'm sure that we haven't heard of, but it reached around the world really quickly.

Jeremy:
Naomi's social media following grew quickly, we heard of a elderly couple in America who the lady had bought the book for her grandchildren, and before she had a chance to give it to them was sitting on her coffee table, and her husband came home and saw it and started reading it, and when she walked in later he was in tears, and said, "This happened to me," when he was a boy, and he'd never told anyone, and now he's an elderly gentleman opening up for the very first time, and when Naomi wrote the book and we first went through the publishing journey, we never would have thought that an elderly man in America would be impacted by it so amazingly.

Ellen:
Yeah, that's incredible isn't it? Absolutely incredible. Is it just that? I mean it's a beautifully written story, and it's easy, and one of the things that I love about children's books, even for adults, and I don't know if this is something that you find as well, is that because they're written in a way that they are simple, and they're illustrated, and the messaging is kind of, I don't know if straightforward is the right way, but they're written in a way that children can understand, it automatically makes it so accessible for adults as well.

Naomi:
Definitely, and I think that's the power of this book, is that the language use enables children a way to disclose, or a way to discuss that has never been provided before, and to be able to do that for people is a very humbling and rewarding experience.

Ellen:
Yeah, just incredible. I mean, as you said Jeremy, I know it cannot in any way shape or form take away the experiences that you've had Naomi, but I suppose that the upside, the benefit, I'm struggling to find the right words here, but just to know that. I suppose in a way it's reframing those terrible, terrible, hurtful experiences into something that can be good and can be positive, it doesn't necessarily take away the feeling, but can certainly shape the way you view it, does that make sense?

Jeremy:
It's definitely a silver lining.

Naomi:
100%.

Jeremy:
We were running a session in, again, Newcastle around the same time as Naomi was interviewed on radio, and we've run sessions in childcare centers, and preschools, we do parent and staff sessions where we're talking about the impact of our books generally, and how to start conversations and be brave when you're discussing things with kids, but we also do kid sessions as well, but this one session in Newcastle, this lady walked in and she just walked straight up to Naomi and said, "Can I please hug you?" And she just gave her the biggest hug, and she handed her a picture that her daughter had drawn, which was a picture of her favorite page from A Secret Safe to Tell, and she said, "My daughter while reading it told me that when she goes to her dad's place, the dad's neighbor was abusing her."

Jeremy:
And this mom, the impact on this mom that the daughter could get help, they could stop it, she knew there was something wrong but didn't have any tools to figure out what it was, and suddenly this children's book came along that was her tool, her resource to help her daughter. So it empowered the daughter, and it helped the daughter, but it empowered the mom to think, "I'm not helpless in this," that, "I can actually help my daughter here," and I think that's been huge to help parents navigate this as well.

Jeremy:
Naomi was 30 before she had to go through a healing process for her sexual abuse as a child, this girl was eight, and the power in that is that when this girl is 30, she's going to have had 22 years of healing, and nurturing, and support, and not that she'll be as if she would have been had it not happened, but she'll be completely different to how Naomi was as a 30-year-old.

Ellen:
Yeah, and is there something about the, because as you're talking about it I'm sort of visualizing grandparents, or parents, or childcare workers, or any of these, as you say, trusted adults sitting with a child and reading a story, something that those of us with kids, and I suppose even without kids probably most of us have done at some stage, is there something about the shared story, the pictures, so just sitting down together that you think enables these conversations to kind of unfurl in a way that they couldn't otherwise?

Naomi:
Yeah. This isn't really, especially this topic of sexual abuse, when someone's going through it, it's a very shameful, very isolating experience, and I think the beauty in sitting down with a precious little soul, and giving them that nurturing time and support is just the most beautiful situation for them to sit down and go, "Actually, I do feel safe to tell someone that something like this is going on," because you instantly open up an opportunity that maybe they didn't feel was there before in the busyness of life, or in sitting with the stories, or the situation going through their head before they're trying to fall asleep at night. Sitting down reading a book, it is just such a beautiful process, and I think that's the beauty in this creation.

Jeremy:
I think also that as young kids books are our first glimpse into the world, they're our first glimpse of other places, and other concepts, and other constructs that exist, and when a child can sit there and see themselves in a story, and connect with the support of their loved one and their trusted adult, but I think when they can see themselves in a story, that impact is pretty profound, and that's why as publishers and as authors, we've got to have stories about everyone, we've got to have stories about kids with disabilities, we've got to have kids of every culture, and color, and race, and religion see themselves in stories, because a lot of kids don't feel represented by children's books, and that's why the work we do is so important, that kids with disabilities, that kids that have lost siblings, that kids that have crippling anxiety, or imaginary friends, or parents with mental illness, they can see themselves in a story.

Jeremy:
And for a child to be able to just point to a page and say, "This happens to me," rather than trying to find the words to describe abuse, or to describe something that's going on for them, that they don't even know one that it's wrong, or two to have the vocab to say it, just to point and say, "This is happening to me. This is me." Is really powerful.

Ellen:
Yeah, that's what I was wondering, whether it is partly perhaps feeling less alone because they can see, or maybe this happens to other people and it's not just me, but also it's less than about perhaps being asked directly what was going on, it's harder for people, even adults, to open up when a difficult conversation is directed at them. Our first instinct quite often is to shut that down and go, "No, I can't go there, that's too uncomfortable."

Jeremy:
That also works the other way, that it's not confronting for the adult. The adult doesn't have to specifically say, "Are you being abused?" It's not confronting for them either, because we know a lot of adults have been through the same thing, and it's hard for them to confront this issue, let alone ask the child they love whether it's happening to them. So it's non-confronting both ways.

Ellen:
Yeah, definitely. I think even in the visual representation, children who aren't even exposed to abuse, or violence, or anything like that, it's just a lovely representation for them to see, "Oh, her heart's changing color," or, "She's feeling really worried and sad, if I feel sad I come to you mommy and daddy, or I tell grandma and grandpa." It opens that up, so that when they are faced with a challenging time, it could be that they lost their teddy, or something that they're really sad about, or someone upset them, or hurt their feelings, certainly they'll know to go and share that.

Ellen:
They don't have to hold that in, that's not shameful, that's not something that they have to stew on, or be alone in, and I think that's the beauty of these stories, is it provides conversations, and setting them up for a successful experience through the hard times. It's not going to be completely removed, and easy, and amazing, but it lessens the impact, and makes them feel more empowered throughout it, more resilient as well I think.

Jeremy:
The most surprising element of A Secret Safe to Tell, when we first started publishing, we hoped it was going to impact kids that have been sexually abused, we hoped that it was going to nurture adults that were recovering and healing from abuse, but probably the most surprising and amazing element is the proactive, pre-emptive aspect of the book, that teachers are reading it in classrooms, parents are reading it to their kids just to start conversations about secrets versus surprises, about good touch and bad touch, about having a trusted network to talk to.

Jeremy:
So our daughter, thank goodness, hasn't been sexually abused that we know of, we certainly hope that's the case, but when she was a young kid, even when it was at PDF stage before it was printed, we were reading it to her, and the conversations that came up were different every time we read it, one day it was just about who to call in an emergency, it was about 000, one day it was about something had happened at childcare center or preschool where she felt a friend was mean, and that's the story, brought that up.

Jeremy:
So, the change in color of the heart in the book, that connects with kids and they go, "I feel like that sometimes." If kids haven't been through sexual abuse, then the story's not about sexual abuse, and this is what we say to all adults that are thinking about reading it, it's not going to ruin a kid's innocence, it's not going to start a horrible conversation where you're going to tell kids that there are sexual abusers out there, because if they haven't been through it, it's not about that, it certainly can be, you can guide conversation there, and the evolution of reading this book is fantastic, but it doesn't have to be about sexual abuse.

Ellen:
Yeah, because it just opens up conversations, as you say, I'm even thinking, "I've got my pile of books here by my desk, but shall I take them home?" I'm going to put them in the living room for my boys just to see what conversations arise, because there's a wealth of different topics, and there was certainly one in particular, I think it's called You're Different Jemima, by Jedidah Morley, and as I read through that I went, "Oh, yes, I can see my younger son in that. I can see bits and pieces in it I think he might really relate to."

Jeremy:
That book is really where Empowering Resources started, because A Secret Safe to Tell was written prior to Empowering Resources even being a thing, and when the publisher went into liquidation, You're Different Jemima is actually illustrated by the same illustrator as A Secret Safe to Tell, and so we'd heard about this book when visiting the illustrator, and discussing A Secret Safe to Tell or future projects, and then when the publisher went to liquidation, Jedidah Morley, the author of Jemima, was devastated because she'd spent a lot of money to have the book published, it was almost sent to print, it was going to be sent to print the next week, and the publisher went to liquidation, so she didn't get any money back, and the book was now scrapped, it was no longer going to exist.

Jeremy:
So we contacted Jed, and we said, "Look, we'd like to start a publishing business, we'd like to start by publishing your book." So we gave some different options on how that could be done, but fantastically we were able to publish You're Different Jemima, and get it out into the world where perhaps without Empowering Resources it wouldn't be out in the world. It's certainly a book that needs to be out in the world, we need to celebrate difference and diversity, and those kids that are a little bit quirky, and perhaps don't fit the mold, and that book has certainly impacted a lot of people around Australia, and the feedback about it is that those kids that are just a little bit different and perhaps have never seen themselves in books, or never seen themselves as okay, and now learning that it's not just okay, it's actually wonderful that you're different.

Naomi:
I think it also helps adults to realize the responsibility that we have when having conversations with young people, we can actually make or break someone's confidence, and so it's really up to us how we celebrate and include all people whenever we're anywhere, and yeah I really love the power of that book in how it really calls adults to take responsibility in that respect too.

Ellen:
As I was reading it, I think there was partly that recognition for kids, because in the story Jemima is struggling a bit at school, she's not enjoying it because she wants to do this slightly different, slightly quirky, and the other kids seem a lot more compliant, a lot more happy to follow the rules, and she doesn't want to color in a yellow duck, she wants to color in a rainbow duck, and all of those things, because one of my missions is a workplace psychologist in particular, and coaching psychologist is helping grown-ups to understand their unique differences, and what that brings to the world, and that if you don't fit, and none of it, because there really isn't a mold, it's sort of some places set a kind of framework of expectations around what we should be, and what we should do, but not one of us would fit that perfectly.

Naomi:
No.

Ellen:
And to be able to express our individuality, to be able to use our strengths, and to operate in a really authentic way is just so much better for us in terms of our well-being, but also better for the environments we operate in, their workplaces, but this is the same for kids, and I think being able to read it and go, "Yeah, this should be a good reminder maybe to teachers that not every kid is necessarily going to do things the way that makes it easy," but to not allow them to express that individuality is just such a loss perhaps for everyone, not just for that child.

Jeremy:
The author, Jed, is actually a teacher, she's a music teacher, Performing Arts teacher, so she knows exactly what it's about with kids that are a little bit quirky, and I don't know what she's like as a teacher, but I imagine that she'd be such a fantastic teacher that accepts that diversity, and that quirkiness.

Ellen:
No, I thought it was lovely, and I think the contrast of those two particular titles, probably give our listeners a bit of a sense of the breadth of different stories that you're telling, or your authors are telling. Naomi, you've written a number of these books yourself, can you tell us a little bit about some of the other titles you've written?

Naomi:
Yeah, sure. So, my second title is Even Mummy Cries, and that book is based on a beautiful family where the children, they know they're so loved by their mom, and they do all these wonderful things together, but then they notice their mom feeling really sad, and then through the course of the story she becomes more and more distant, and the children are like, "Oh, we're trying so hard to be good," and it's not until she brings them in, and snuggles them, and shares that, "Hey, I'm just going through some things," and shares that journey but in a really age-appropriate way, and it reminds them, "Oh, it's not about us, it's not our fault that mom's sad, but it's okay to see her cry, and it's okay to see her struggle."

Naomi:
And then they feel better, just being brought into that conversation. So that's to help support families whose caregiver is going through something, whether that's mental illness, a physical illness, it could just be mom or dad are just really tired, they're just really, really stressed at work, or something like that, and if children aren't brought into that conversation, a lot of the time they are feeling responsible for the stress in the home, or they'll make up reasons why they're bad, or why they have done something wrong to cause it.

Naomi:
So that book is helping a lot of families, and we've had a lot of great feedback, even from parents navigating separation, and divorce, just about sharing conversations with their children to take that responsibility off their shoulders, that it's not their fault, and remind them they're so loved, and so beautifully wonderful that it had nothing to do with them, and I really loved writing that book, because we hear so many times, "If only that was around when I was a child," and just to have that knowledge, and that support, and that identity as a child growing up just removes a lot of pain when you're going through it.

Ellen:
And that one struck me as being particularly useful, perhaps for my colleagues as clinical psychologists who have perhaps clients who are going through tough times, whether that's a mental health issue, or as you say, separation, divorce, whatever it might be, because I know for people they have to kind of feel like they're looking after themselves, but they've got family responsibilities too, and they always worry about the impact of what they're going through, and their children. So to be able to, as therapists for adults, share resources like that, that can then start the conversations amongst families, that really struck when I read Even Mummy Cries.

Naomi:
I think what really shocked me the most is when I was going through all of my healing from the childhood abuse, and I just was so worried, I would just felt so awful that I was failing as a mom because I was crying, and I felt I had to hide it from Marli, and I was doing her such a disservice, because all of that struggle and pain just made it harder to be a mom, and parent her well, but also it robbed her of being brought into the conversation, it separated us, and so as soon as I let go of all that, and in an age-appropriate way of course, I brought her into that journey, she felt connected, it instantly ignited this beautiful empathy within her, "Oh mommy, you are sad, here let me give you a cuddle."

Naomi:
Like just as a two-year-old being able to proactively support you, but in a way that's not managing my stress, or being responsible or accountable for it. It was just a beautiful way to break that heaviness within our home, once I started removing the guilt and the shame that I should be this perfect parent, and I think sharing that and being a vulnerable parent with other moms, and other dads who also might be struggling, they're like, "Oh, okay. So it's okay to cry, or to say that I'm feeling sad, and let our children know." And I'm like, "Absolutely, they already have this gut instinct that something's not right, and by you not being honest with them, it builds this barrier of disconnect, and sometimes distrust between what's really going on."

Naomi:
So once we let them in beautifully, it's just a beautiful connection, a way just to move through that pain, that journey, that struggle as a family rather than being so isolated in it, or feeling like you have to have it all together, because we all don't, and I think that basic human rawness sometimes is so helpful for them to see, and then they don't have to pretend when they're going through stuff either, everyone's going to have pain and struggle, so that's been a beautiful book to support a lot of people.

Jeremy:
Even the other week Nao was having a bad day, just a bit upset, and Marli, who's as we said nearly 11, just said, "Even mummy cries, that's okay." And even now for her as an 11-year-old it's still impacting her that that message is so strong that you can see your parents cry, and that's okay, and it gives Marli now an opportunity to give Nao a cuddle and just say, "We're here for your mom, and everything's going to be okay," and I think that's the power of having conversations with kids from a young age, just bringing them in and it empowers them to then support you.

Jeremy:
And it's not that we're placing adult responsibilities on our kids, but we can allow kids to feel like they can be a support too and not just always be the one being supported, and I think that's really empowering.

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely.

Ellen:
Yeah, acknowledges our humanness, and also gives a language, which I think is such an empowering thing to do, even just that phrase, even mummy cries, it's automatically then an instant language to explain to herself, and to others, this is what happens, and this is normal, and this is okay.

Jeremy:
Absolutely, and kids don't get caught up on gender as well, in a lot of our books they have gendered characters, and titles, but kids don't get caught up on that. So we've had kids say, Even Mummy Cries really connects with them, because their grandpa suffers from mental illness, or their uncle cries, or their father, they don't get caught up on it. So, a lot of adults do, they get caught up on the gendered parts of our books, but the kids don't.

Jeremy:
We've had boys fall in love with A Secret Safe to Tell, and take it to bed with them at night, even though the character does come across as a female character, kids don't get caught up on that like some adults think they probably will.

Ellen:
Yeah, that's been fascinating for me as a parent actually, in practical ways, that kids don't seem to even notice gender in the same way that adults do. It's been quite a discovery for me. So that's two, what are some of the other titles that you've written?

Naomi:
Yes. So, Finding Heaven is my third book, and that's about a little girl whose brother has passed away, and this is close to home, it was based on when I was a little girl, five, my brother passed away of leukemia, he was 18, and everyone had said, "He's gone to heaven now, he's gone to heaven, we all just move on," and I was like, "Where's heaven? I want to get to heaven, I want to see him again."

Naomi:
It just didn't work for me, and so this is a wonderful story to connect with those children who have lost a sibling, and to know that heaven's within them, wherever they go, that beautiful special soul is with them, and is a part of them in every single day, in every single way that they express themselves. So that's been a really beautiful way for children to share, and grieve, and learn that it doesn't mean it's the end.

Ellen:
Yeah, and that one really got me. I read it, that one really got to me. No, I haven't had that experience, and my children haven't had that particular experience, but maybe it's just the idea of loss and realizing that loss doesn't really mean the end, and how you have that conversation with children.

Naomi:
Yes, and I think in society we try to protect children from grief, and we try to shield them from funerals, and we don't talk about things dying, and we don't talk about how adults were evil, there's not this rich conversation around death, and this is so a part of human existence, we can't have it without it.

Naomi:
So we need to provide nurturing conversations, because kids are fascinated about it, and there will be people they come across that will pass away, and loved ones will move on, and it is something that we need to be way more real with our young people about in order to prepare them, and to make them feel supported with that experience, rather than it being a shameful hideaway, we don't do it until we're adults, and then even then we don't do it very well at all. So yeah, hopefully that supports a lot more people.

Jeremy:
And I think it's important to note here that Finding Heaven is a non-religious look of heaven, it's a non-religious discussion of heaven.

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely. It was just because that was what was always said, "They've gone to heaven now." Like, "Well, what is heaven and where is that?"

Ellen:
Yeah, when really the story is about just finding memory, and love, and that connection in your heart, I suppose, and maybe that's what heaven looks like for that little girl.

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely. Then we have my fourth book, Marshmallow Dreamers, and that's a really fun, colorful spin on children who experience nightmares, and about these twins who were brave and courageous, and have all this magic sparkle throughout the day, but then when it comes to bedtime they're like, "Oh my God." They just suffer from incredible nightmares, and it's around three or four when children become truly aware of nightmares, and the impact it has on their sleep, and then how vivid and real they feel.

Naomi:
And so this book was really aimed at supporting the children, that we can take a little bit of control in a way that can put some fun, and light, and empowerment through them, turn our nightmares into sticky marshmallow eat treats, that we can eat them later on and that's been a really fun book to write, and see its creation evolve and help support young little souls.

Ellen:
Yeah, and it is colorful, and vibrant, and happy, and positive even though it's dealing obviously with something that kids find scary, and difficult, and probably hard to understand as well. I know I've certainly had conversation with mine for being reluctant to go to sleep in case a particular nightmare that had disturbed them comes back, so just being able to kind of frame it up as a superpower in a way.

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely. And kids that age usually love superheroes.

Ellen:
Exactly, and unicorns, and marshmallows.

Naomi:
Yes, rainbow farting unicorns wins every time.

Ellen:
And so, even just amongst those books that you've authored yourself Naomi gives us a sense of just the breadth of different topics that your titles cover pretty much everything that I can think of that might be of concern, or challenge, or just, I mean it is all everyday experience for kids, but maybe the things that the kids find hard to talk about, and I'm really kind of thinking, "The adults have trouble talking of that, how do I explain these things to kids, how am I going to explain nightmares? How do I explain death? How do I explain, well certainly abuse and things like that?" But there's another lovely one about a little girl moving away called My Super Special Granny, and she's just moving away from her grandmother who she stays really regularly, and so that's kind of disconnection of a relationship, all of these things that just happen that we perhaps don't always realize the impact maybe they have on children, and even if we do, how do we talk about it?

Ellen:
I think just to, we've touched a bit on how ... certainly with A Secret Safe to Tell, the impact that these stories have had, do you have a sense, or do you get feedback on perhaps some of the other titles, or the ways in which these books have helped?

Jeremy:
Yeah, definitely. We get a lot of stories, or a lot of messages from people all around the world, and teachers that are using these books to develop empathy, I think, if you had to pick a word that really encapsulates what our books do, I think the word empathy is really important, because as I said the kids are seeing themselves in books, but also kids that you would classify as not having any illness, or disability, they are able to see difference and diversity in books as well, and I think teachers are using our books to discuss difference, and to talk about empathy, and that if you see someone in the world that looks a bit different to you, or that clearly has something else going on for them, we can have empathy, and understanding, and some sort of awareness that their world is different to yours, and that's not scary, it's not wrong, it's not weird, it's just different, and we need difference in this world, and the messages from teachers is that the impact is really profound.

Jeremy:
If you think about Elliot's Rainbow Heart for example, it's a book with illustrations based on kind of a Graeme Base feel, it's about a chameleon, and the chameleon doesn't like to eat anything but blue things, but suddenly there's no blue things in the forest, so it has to have a risk-taking attitude and try new things, and the book is developing empathy for kids that have sensitivities, kids that might be on the autism spectrum, and again, if a kid is going through that, they can see themselves in the book, but for kids that haven't gone through that, or don't go through that, at least they can see that it exists, and they can have empathy for kids, perhaps in their class, or in their school, or in their community that have different levels of coping mechanisms, or different levels of ways that they react to things in the world.

Jeremy:
And the conversations that come through quite often are quite diverse in terms of what we thought the theme of the book was about. We might think a theme of a book is one thing, and then we get feedback that the class took it in a completely different way, which is exciting that there is breadth and scope for a diverse conversation.

Ellen:
Yeah. I used to help out in my son's class, which was a grade one and two class last year, so I mean I know, because kids especially at that age, they don't always have a filter, so-

Naomi:
No.

Ellen:
... they'll announce that, "Oh, that happened to me," or that sounds like this, and they can be very imaginative, and I can imagine that these would be wonderful prompts for really interesting conversations for those teachers and adults who are prepared to go down that possibly slightly risky path ...

Jeremy:
Absolutely.

Ellen:
... and just to see where the conversation takes you.

Jeremy:
Running From The Tiger is our only junior novel, most of our books are picture storybooks for children, but we have published a junior novel, which is called Running From The Tiger, and it touches on themes of domestic violence, and the main character is early teens, or preteen, and we have a story, someone really close to us read the book when she was, I think in grade five or six, so around 11 or 12, and just the profound impact on her, it was her favorite book because she just saw a lot of her own struggles in the book, and it really resonated with her.

Jeremy:
I think that's really profound, because as an 11 or 12-year-old, life's hard, life's really tough at that age to navigate friendships, and puberty, and run-ins with your parents, and to have a book that you connect and that you resonate with ...

Naomi:
Social media now.

Jeremy:
Yeah, exactly. So we have lots of stories, each individual book has many stories of how it's impacted, but the most common one throughout all our books is if only this book was around when I was young.

Ellen:
Yeah, and which is interesting, because that's obviously having the impact on adults then ...

Jeremy:
Absolutely.

Ellen:
... it's serving children, but it's also serving adults, just this idea that I've been through this stuff, and God wouldn't it have been great if I had a talking point, or someone I could connect with over, or even just an acknowledgement that I'm not alone, that I'm not the only one going through this, because here's somebody else's story.

Naomi:
Yeah, definitely.

Ellen:
So Jeremy, you talked a bit about how teachers are using your books, being able to use them in classrooms and have conversations, are there other audiences, are there other professionals, or other ways in which these books help people who are using them?

Jeremy:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, school psychologists, or clinical psychologists absolutely are using our books, and you'll find that many of our books are in a lot of clinics around Australia, just to have a particular book that if a child is going through something that they can connect with, again, we've mentioned it a few times, but it's very profound for those kids. We presented at a conference in Country Victoria, last year or the year before, it was a foster care conference.

Jeremy:
So foster parents are using our books to help transition kids into their foster care, or out of foster care, or between foster care, their homes, but there's such a diverse audience, children, parents obviously, teachers, any sort of caregivers that are non-parents, medical professionals, psychology professionals, there's a really diverse audience for these books, which is very exciting.

Ellen:
And I'm starting to think that maybe it's just something that every family home should have as well.

Jeremy:
And it's interesting you say that, because the emphasis on A Secret Safe to Tell boomed when a lady called Kate Leaver who was a journalist from Mamamia, the online platform, first wrote a story about A Secret Safe to Tell, and her main message was this book, and we've since discussed with her as an extension, all of our books just should be in every home around Australia, and around the world, and we always emphasize that they're not a special book that you have to preemptively prepare kids for, that they're just books.

Jeremy:
And if you just read them as if it's any other book, A Secret Safe to Tell isn't the sexual abuse book, Free isn't the wheelchair book, they're just books, and if you just read them to your kids just like any other book, and that's what allows kids to take the conversation and the message where they are, and where they want to be, rather than saying, "Right, we're just about to read a very special book, and this is what it's about." You don't have to do any of that, they're just books.

Ellen:
Yeah, I think that's a really important point that we don't need to overlay it with adult judgment, and value, and we as adults have all of these kind of rules about what we should and shouldn't do, and that children just don't have, and if we can kind of take some of that away, so I'm just envisaging, I'm going to take this pile of books home and just put them in the living room, and just see what happens.

Jeremy:
Yeah, but in saying that, if you're going to read a story like A Secret Safe to Tell, where there is evidence that kids have disclosed while reading it, then you have to prepare yourself for that. So it's more about preparing the adult, rather than preparing the child. As mentioned, when we do sessions in schools and in childcare centers, it's about preparing the adults, the teachers, and the staff, what are you going to do if a child discloses? You've got to be ready for that.

Naomi:
Absolutely.

Jeremy:
So, A Secret Safe to Tell is one of those books that could have a very profound impact on kids that you would have to manage, but it's still just a book, and you don't have to prepare the kids, but you do have to prepare yourself for the conversation, and for what you're going to do next. We had a teacher from a preschool in Sydney that purchased A Secret Safe to Tell, and the letter that she wrote us was really profound, she said, "When I read it in the morning, I cried, but I read it to the kids just like any other book, and the conversation that happened afterwards was amazing. We read it at least three or four times that day, and even in their spare time, these three to five-year-olds picked up the book and were just looking through the pages." So, it takes courage to read some books as just books, but we always suggest that if adults are courageous enough, the impact, you'll see it for yourself, it can be really profound.

Ellen:
It really kind of comes back to that meaning and purpose thing that we started the conversation with, doesn't it? That we can psychology or particularly many in purpose, it's a kind of complicated field I haven't kind of knotted it all out yet, but the thing that's always struck me as most meaningful is just the posing it as being able to contribute to something bigger than ourselves, and I think that's really what we're talking about, that these books are able to, as you say Jeremy, if we're courageous as adults really is an opportunity for us to contribute to something that's so much bigger than ourselves, whether that's the well-being of our own family, or if we're looking at teachers, professionals, childcare workers, whatever it might be, how can we have a bigger impact whether on individuals, or even just on a community.

Naomi:
And that's what's exciting about A Secret Safe to Tell, when you empower children with this knowledge about their bodies, their body, and it's okay to say no, and how to go and tell an adult if you're feeling weird about another connection with an adult that's making you feel weird, starting those conversations with children, the ripple effect to their peers, and to their friends, and their networks as children, they can actually speak out for the other children saying, "Oh, they shouldn't do that to your body," or, "They shouldn't touch you in that way, that's not okay, let's go get your mom, let's go tell someone."

Naomi:
That's happened so many times, because a child was read A Secret Safe to Tell. So we say we've impacted 10 children immediately, like they've been instantly validated, but we have no idea on the amount of children we've empowered to help other children feel safer, and more empowered, and for sexual abuse to not have happened to somebody, like that blows my mind, and it brings emotional excitement to my body, like I just can't believe the powerful work we're doing, because Jeremy has been my best friend this whole journey, and supported me, and helped me speak up, and seek validation, and in doing his courageous part for my life, he's helped so many children, and so many adults have powerful conversations that we've saved probably a lot of children from going through this, and it does take courage, because it is so tabooed, and shameful, and scary, it feels that way, but it's actually not.

Naomi:
It's the most remarkable thing, it's such a gift to give a child that knowledge and that power in themselves, and that self-confidence, self-awareness that they might not have had before, because we were courageous to speak up. So it's so beautiful.

Ellen:
And that's such a wonderful way Naomi to describe, I suppose, a way to reframe perhaps the fear that adults might have about that invitation might go, or this could feel uncomfortable, or this could feel difficult, and if we can start to think less about what it does for us, and more about others, or even for families, and for our friends, for our friends' families, and our community, it so helps us to get over the line in terms of that fear, reframing it as this might be hard, but imagine what it could lead to.

Naomi:
Yes.

Jeremy:
Absolutely.

Naomi:
Definitely. I love that.

Ellen:
Guys, where can people find the books? Are they readily available through booksellers, or where because I have no doubt that our conversation has got some of our listeners going, "Oh my God, I need to get ahold of some of these books." Where do they find them?

Jeremy:
They are available in any bookstore in Australia, they may not be in stock, but they can definitely be ordered, they can be found in a lot of libraries, a lot of libraries around Australia have them, so if you'd rather borrow the books, that's absolutely fantastic as well, and of course you can go to our website, which is www.empoweringresources.com.au. So there's quite a few options there, they're on Amazon, they're on Booktopia, they're available outside of Australia as well via Amazon, and places like the Book Depository, and things like that.

Jeremy:
So lots of different options, and if you'd like to contact us directly you can do that as well via Facebook, either Naomi Hunter Author, or Empowering Resources, and you can order through there or through our website.

Ellen:
And I'll put all of those links in the show notes to this episode as well so that people can click through and find them, I think that's a great reminder of the beauty of our libraries, as a resource for books as well, and I'm guessing that if listeners go to their librarians, or maybe their schools, or even booksellers and just say, "I'm interested in the titles that are put out by Empowering Resources," then they'll be able to see a good selection, if not the whole selection.

Jeremy:
Absolutely. It certainly hasn't been easy producing books that can sometimes be seen as topical message niche books, but we certainly don't view them that way, but booksellers do, they see them as difficult books to sell and market, so the booksellers and the libraries that do have them we're really grateful for, because we understand that sometimes it takes courage, and again it's about adults taking courage, but we believe they should just be the focus of every bookstore, and that's not just because we publish them, any books that are dealing with big stuff, and encouraging conversations, whether we publish them or there's other amazing authors and publishers out there creating books that are very meaningful, they should be on display, they should be in the public eye.

Jeremy:
Not that there's anything wrong with books that are about imagination and creativity, we certainly love those books as well, but we just think that books that encourage meaningful conversations just should be at the forefront as well, they should be given their time, and it takes courage from booksellers, and distributors, and parents, and people that are purchasing. We're really lucky that we've got a connection with NewSouth Books, who are affiliated with the University of New South Wales, so they distribute all of our books into libraries, and bookstores around Australia. We've been really grateful that they've been really interested in helping us get our books out there, so that's been a real plus.

Ellen:
Yeah, and I'm hoping that just by virtue of our conversation today, and getting that out to our audience, that perhaps more of us can lobby our school libraries, or if we are librarians, or we're teachers, or we have some role to play in here, as you say, put some of these books out on display so that kids are more able, and parents are more able to just, in passing, pick them up and flick through them, and see the difference that they can make.

Jeremy:
Absolutely.

Naomi:
Yes.

Jeremy:
We'll be at the Mental Health In Schools conferences, in Sydney and Melbourne, so Sydney's the 21st and 22nd of May, and then Melbourne's the week after, so the 28th and 29th of May, we'll be promoting all of our books there, and encouraging anyone that's attending to get a set of our books, just to have, and to be reading them to their kids, to kids in schools and classes, in clinics, just have courage and have meaningful conversations.

Ellen:
Wonderful. I will put links to both of those, or that conference both in Sydney and Melbourne as well, because that may well be ... well, we may have listeners who are already in planning to attend, so they can come and seek you out and say hello ...

Naomi:
Yes, we'd love that.

Ellen:
... and they might like to attend, and do that, or at least pass the message along to their colleagues too, because I think that would be absolutely worthwhile.

Jeremy:
One of our goals is to get messages out there in lots of different mediums, so obviously our books, that's certainly one way, and our social media is another way, and when we present at conferences, and at schools, and preschools, we've also been really fortunate to have international translations of a couple of our books, so A Secret Safe to Tell is translated into complex Chinese in Taiwan, simplified Chinese in China, where it actually just won a huge Children's Choice Book Award, where 1.3 million kids voted for their favorite book, and the Chinese version of A Secret Safe to Tell one, which is just incredible, and a lot of the publicity in China is just that isn't culture changing, where China is often seen as a very conservative culture, but where a book like A Secret Safe to Tell can win a children's award.

Jeremy:
The key there is that children are choosing this book, children are showing us with their choices that they're interested in reading this important stuff, and through that the publisher in China has just bought the rights to translate Even Mummy Cries into Chinese in China as well. So there's scope for our books to be further translated, we've also done a bilingual Swahili and English copy of A Secret Safe to Tell to support kids in Kenya and Tanzania, and a lot of the work is in collaboration with Rafiki Mwema, they're a charity that supports sexually abused kids in Kenya.

Jeremy:
So that's been really rewarding, and really fantastic, and Sarah who runs Rafiki Mwema is just a fantastic advocate for kids, and a support for kids that need our support, even though they're in the other side of the world, but another really exciting thing that's happening this year is that A Secret Safe to Tell has been worked and written as a stage musical, a fantastic theater director and writer in Melbourne called Jason Cavanagh, he's written the stage musical, it's ready to be moved on to the next stage, pardon the pun, and we've actually done a read-through with actors, and it's just fantastic.

Jeremy:
So hopefully, by the end of this year, or perhaps the start of next year, we'll be able to see a stage musical based on A Secret Safe to Tell, and the way he's written it is just so wonderfully connected with the message in the story, but it's its own standalone play, it's not just the book written as a play, it's themes, there's certain lines from the book that are brought to life in this play, but there's songs, and the idea with that is we'll premiere it in Melbourne, and then we hope to have funding to take it around to schools, around Victoria, and around Australia. So, definitely keep an eye out for that, that's really, really exciting.

Ellen:
In fact, all of that is very exciting, and you must keep us posted, particularly on the musical, but all of those events so that I can share that with the audience, but I think everything that you've just described there Jeremy is really a testament to the impact that the books are making, the stories, the authors, Naomi, but also the very many other authors that are writing for you, and Empowering Resources as an organization. So congratulations, and thank you again for taking the time to talk to us today, I really appreciate it. I know that, and I'm confident that we will have inspired our audience to even think about the conversations that they're having with their kids, but certainly to go out there and take advantage of some of these resources in order to see where they can make a bigger impact too.

Naomi:
Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, thanks for having us.

Jeremy:
Thanks for your time.

Ellen:
Thank you, it's been lovely. Thank you for sharing that interview with Naomi Hunter and Jeremy Hunter with me, I hope it does your heart good as it does mine to know that there are people out there doing good in the world, especially right now when things are feeling a bit anxious and a bit icky. We've put the link to the Empowering Resources website, where you'll find and can buy all of the books that they publish in the show notes for today's episode, we've also included their social channels, and Naomi Hunter's website, Naomi Hunter Author, and her social channels, and everything is there in the show notes, as well as some links to the topics, or some of the topics, and the resources that we mentioned during today's conversation.

Ellen:
So, please spread the word about these books to your community, to your local library, to schools that you're associated with, to teachers, and early childhood educators that you know, I really do believe that they can, and I think they've been shown to be really valuable resources, to start some important conversations, and to just help kids to feel less alone.

Ellen:
I wanted to update you on a couple of other things that are on the radar here at PPHQ, it's Brain Awareness Week this week, and while brain science and behavior science aren't quite the same thing, they most certainly overlap with our brain being really the driver of our behavior, and to celebrate and acknowledge Brain Awareness Week, and because it also explains some of the behavior we're seeing related to COVID-19, I'm sharing posts on our cognitive biases all week, this week.

Ellen:
And cognitive biases are basically systematic kind of errors that our brains make in judging, and processing information, and they're regularly studied by both psychology and behavioral economics in particular, and they're fascinating, they explain a lot about why we do what we do, and some of them are downright entertaining, like the IKEA effect, which I'm not going to tell you about now, you'll have to keep an eye out for that.

Ellen:
So watch out for all of those this week, I'm also in response to the anxiety and concerns about mental health and well-being related to COVID-19, putting together some online programs for workplaces in particular. So if you are concerned about the well-being of employees, or you yourself would like additional support to manage your well-being right now, please let me know, and I'll let you know as soon as it's available. I'm working to have that stuff up and online and available from next week, but I'll keep you posted on that.

Ellen:
But it's just an online course, really short, simple, easy to access, chunks of information, video worksheets, et cetera, et cetera, and I'll be covering how the brain responds to uncertainty, and how this drives our behavior, how to maintain calm and build resilience in the face of challenge, and some simple steps to keeping well in difficult times. So I'll put a link in the show notes to a registration page, where you can register your interest, or your workplace's interest in that, and then I will keep you up to date, and send you everything you will need to purchase that little program as soon as it becomes available.

Ellen:
So, that's it from me this week, a big week, another big week. Next week I have this season's solo episode for you, so I'll be talking about personality, and how it drives what we do, and thanks to the lovely members of the PP Community who joined me on this week's webinar, I'm going to be talking in particular about positive personality, and what we know about the personality characteristics that keep us happy, well, and kind.

Ellen:
That's next week, it's episode 78 of the Potential Psychology Podcast, please look after yourself, and your well-being between now and then, and do everything that you can to continue to live, learn, flourish, and fulfill your potential.